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Re: Guess It Was Bound to Happen

Posted by **BlackMonk** on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:23:38 AM:
In Reply to: Re: Guess It Was Bound to Happen posted by **murray** on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:43:19 AM:

***************** Now BC is politically incorrect...
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*****************More and more schools are insisting on BCE or 'Before Common Era'...
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*****************Some schools accept BS , BM and Before Obama...
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****************What, exactly, is your objection? Why do you think that schools should use BC? Because that's the way it has always been done? Because you think it's beneficial to the country if we explicitly use Jesus' birth as a historical reference point? Because you want to let all non-Christians know that they don't really belong here?
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***************I think your first because is the most accurate...
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*************I'll take note that Christianity is the ONLY faith under attack by atheists in any significant degree.
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************You mean, you'll assert that.
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***************I'm just a guy who's closing in on 60 who can't help but wonder how much longer it will be before Christ is considered a full-fledged expletive not to be used in civilized conversation...
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**************So this is less about politics than it is about you getting old and wanting things to stay the same? The US doesn't have a state religion, so is there any reason why secular schools should use BC instead of BCE? There are plenty of non-Christian religions in the country. There are even people who don't follow any religion. Don't all of those people deserve just as much respect as Christians?
*************Yeah, sure, so why change the terms? What is the objection if Christ means nothing to them? Apparently it must mean something.
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************Yes, it means the deity of a religion that they don't practice. Why should a country that doesn't have a state religion use Christianity as a point of reference?
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*************Why should non-religious schools reinforce the idea that everything should center around Christianity? No one is making "Christ" an expletive. However, things like this mean is isn't being given as much of a position of privilege as it had in the past. The thing is, as a Christian, you've (and I mean "you" generically. Whether or not it applies to you personally is your call) been on top for so long that you think you're being discriminated against when you're being treated like everyone else.
*************Jews don't use the same calendar anyways...except maybe to correlate with the rest of the world. So as a jew, why should you care or argue in favor of such a change? Fair question I think.
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************No, it isn't. I'm a citizen of this country, too, and not a second-class citizen, so why should I be treated as one?
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**************Here's another example: You know how every year someone makes a fuss about a store saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas?" It isn't "happy holidays except Christmas," so the thing they're objecting to is that Christmas isn't being held in a position above everyone else's holidays. Does that seems fair to you?
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*************Considering that Christmas day is a paganization then as a follower of Christ it concerns me very little. In fact I think it's just as well that we drop the celebration of Christs birth from it's association with pagan festivities. But I don't care nor will I argue for or against it. But the DIFFERENCE is that I'm not telling pagans to GIVE up their custom altogether or rename it to something generic as a slap in their face.
*************And you were talking about respect? Gosh. I don't know.
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************Are you calling all Christians who celebrate Christmas pagans?
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************Once again, you think that losing some privilege is the same as persecution. You think it's unfair not to have your religion treated as more important than everything else. No one is asking you to give up your customs. We're talking about the way religions are treated in public, in supposedly secular institutions.
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************When you understand the difference, we'll be able to talk.
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***************Weird how other faiths have always been on campuses raising their voices against so many things and BC was never a focus for protest...
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**************Is that your criterion? Not whether or not something is the right thing to do? Not whether or not using "BCE" is a positive or negative development? Just whether or not you've heard complaints? I can tell you two things: One, my Hebrew school always used BCE and two, when I was a kid, I didn't think too much about it because I had more important things to worry about, but BC did give me a vague sense of discomfort.
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*************Why? What I'm asking is if you believe that Christ lived and died nothing more than that.
*************My goal is to understand as best as possible. Not that I care all that much since to each his own except when that person encroaches my own. I want to know what he thinks he's doing. But what is the motto "Power through Deception"??/something like that. Laughable except it isn't.
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**************Maybe nobody made a big deal about it 40 years ago, but isn't it possible that we've learned something in that time and now we know better?
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*************I'd ask you to elaborate but I don't think so, really...
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*************Does anybody really know what time it is?
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************* I tend to believe this is all primarily driven by atheists...
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*********** I have seen a number of discussions online about the change and the most vocal opposition to BC/AD seems to be coming from atheists rather than those of other faiths...
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**********So? Don't you think that atheists deserve respect just as much as theists do?
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*********** When did this "vague discomfort' you had become a feeling that you were a second-class citizen?...When enough people declared that you should be pissed off about BC/AD?
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**********Oh, I see. You're insinuating that I'm being told what to think. You have no interest in understanding why a person might object to this, just in dismissing those people. I'm sorry. I thought I could have a serious discussion with you. My mistake. Anyone with half a brain and any sense of objectivity would understand that a sense of vague discomfort was about all a ten year old could articulate about the subject.
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************ I really don't think this change even begins to even things out
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**********Not really. Too many people think Christianity should be the default position of faith in the US.
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**********...Like so many other PC moves, it only puts the chronically offended into a position of power...
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**********What power? The power to be treated as equals?
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**********If I really believed Christians' concerns about being offended were going to taken seriously. I might see it differently... But let's call it secularism when some faiths have a right to be offended and some do not...
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**********Please, tell me more about how Christians are the ones who are really persecuted. Let's pretend that Christians haven't been acting as though they have a right to be treated above everyone else.
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**********Damn, you're so steeped in a sense of privilege that it seems normal to you.
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**********You still haven't answered my question. Why SHOULD we continue to use BC. What benefit do we get from that?
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*********I'm concerned about where this all might be headed and what a truly even steven situation is... Should we cater to a student who is not Christian and is offended by a roomie who reads Christian books or wears a cross? if his wishes are granted, then so should the wishes of a Christian who is offended by the reading choices of his Muslim roomie... If you deprive one of their right to be offended, it is not a level playing field...True secularism would be catering to no religion...
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*********Surely you understand that..
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********You're talking about a private situation. This is a public situation, two very different thing.
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********As for an "even steven" situation, we're not starting off even. Atheists and non-Christians are complaining about Christianity being treated as the official religion, which everyone should follow. Christians are complaining about being treated on the same level as everyone else. Unless someone is proposing making another religion the default, say changing "before Christ" to "before Mohammed," Christian complaints about this are not the same thing. You want "even steven?" Taking all religion out of the public sphere would do that. Is that what you're advocating?
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******* Didn't you tell someone else to get out of the country and find one more of their liking. Why not follow your own advice? Or do you just like moaning about how inferior you feel?
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******I told someone to find a country more to his liking. You can, too. You would be a good fit for Saudi Arabia.
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***** This from the person who thinks that a vast majority of employees at a workplace should be deprived of food choices they're accustomed to because a handful of employees may be offended by the sight of them eating barbecue or bacon and egg sandwiches?...Even if acceptable choices are available for the minority, that still isn't enough to satisfy you?
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*****Where does that place you? In Taliban territory?
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****Liar. Please don't misrepresent what I've said.
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****Since you're the one who has no problem with the state placing one religion above everything else, that would make you similar to the Taliban. Evidently, in your worldview, Christians are the only ones who deserve respect. That would explain why you have no problem with antisemitism when it comes from someone who flames a person you dislike.
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*** I'm not lying about anything. I was left with the distinct impression from that conversation that you had no problem with a majority of employees in a workplace being deprived of food choices they were accustomed to because some of those choices might offend a minority of workers...
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***If I misinterpreted your view, feel free to explain how...
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**Feel free to show me the situation and my response.
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*\* I didn't save the posts. sorry..
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Then you'll understand if I don't respond. How can I clarify a half-remembered conversation from a long time ago? All I can say is that the position you attribute to me sounds like you misunderstood what I said then or are leaving out some important nuance. If you aren't convinced, there's nothing I can do about that.



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*** So I'm not supposed to derive anything negative when you don't speak up on certain matters but you can assume the worst of me if I don't meet your specifications?
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**Well, you're the one who claimed that you had a problem when other people made antisemitic posts. I'm saying it's curious that you haven't called out one specific poster in a very long time and that you haven't called her out since she began having flame threads with a specific poster that you dislike. Ironically, you've complained about me never criticizing her, even though that's untrue.
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** *I called antisemitism here on people before you did and you know it...
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**Another lie.
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* Monk, I clearly recall saying a poster was engaging in anti-semitic talk and you responded as though I was being much too harsh in mu choice of words

Yes, at the time, that was the situation with one person as I saw it. That's different from saying that you called antisemitism on anyone before I did.



*...This a poster you've since accused of the same many times... One of the reasons I refrained from being more vocal about it all was your assertion that I was not qualified to make the anti-Semite call...So I grant that you are more qualified and still you have a problem?
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Since that person has posted much more blatantly antisemitic things that don't seem to bother you, yes.

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***You want me to keep repeating myself to those who have clearly demonstrated they have no intention of giving credence to anything I say on the matter? Should I always take your silence as enthusiastic approval?
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**You do that anyway.
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* I have a problem with silence when those who are silent were once very vocal with their opinions that certain actions were wrong...

You mean like, say, you calling out a person on antisemitism and then becoming silent on the issue?


If the same actions or worse are taking place and the only difference is that another person is in charge of those actions, the silence is definitely questionable, imo...
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Just because you see two situations as identical, that doesn't mean everyone does. Besides, didn't you just say that there was no point in calling out the same person repeatedly?

*If people are consistently low-key on such matters, that's less of an issue...

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